03 March 2011

FORUM AT UWS BANKSTOWN ON 28 JUNE 2002




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FORUM AT UWS BANKSTOWN,
28th June 2002
"Islam & Homosexuality, an Islamic, Scientific and Logical Approach"


SPEAKERS:
Hanan Dover,
Lecturer in psychology, University of Western Sydney (suspended)


Keysar Trad,
Spokesperson, Lebanese Muslim Association, Sydney


TEXT OF TALK:


Hanan Dover:

Bismilla alrahman arahim
Alhamdulahi rabul alameen

Assalata wa salam ala ashraf ala nabiya wa al moorsaleen

Salam Alaykoom brothers and Sisters,

And I do welcome non-Muslims and pro-gay representatives who are wanting to hear Islam's view of homosexual behaviour, but I will also talk about homosexuality in light of scientific evidence, and then what we as a Muslim community need to do to address the increasing prevalence of Muslims who are 'choosing' to practice homosexuality or are struggling with it.

Before I start, a show of hands that agree that:

Homosexuality is haram within Islam?

- surprisingly, in a study I did last year, 30% of Muslims from a sample of about 82 Muslims did not know if homosexuality was immoral or even thought it was OK. This I think is the result of a few things, too much Big Brother, Neighbours, Home and Away and Sex and the City, the public school's unIslamic influence, and not enough education from the parents or individual reading of Islam.

Tonight's topic of homosexuality in Islam, is not taboo.

Anyone who thinks it is should re-read their scriptures as the Prophet (saw) did say 'lay haya fi din' There is no shyness in religion. A 10 year old can pick up the Quran and read the Story of Prophet Lut and his struggle with the homosexual population and there are hadiths on the issue.

The taboo about discussing this topic only comes from culture and not religion. And religion should be given precedence over culture when they contradict one another. As one set of rules is Divine and the other is man-made.

So, why is a Muslimah talking about this issue in front of a Muslim audience, the answer to this shall develop on its own during the end of the talk, Inshallah.


ISLAM AND HOMOSEXUALITY

So, what do Islamic Scriptures say about homosexuality:
5 references to homosexual behaviour in the Quran, but 2 of them are most explicit:

Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination; no one in the world has done it before! You practice sex with the men, instead of the women. Indeed, you are a transgressing people." [7:80-81]

"Do you have sex with the males, of all the people? You forsake the wives that your Lord has created for you! Indeed, you are transgressing people." [26:165-166]


Hence, just from these verses we can deduce that Islam forbids any sexual relationship other than between man and woman, and even then, it must be within a marriage. In a hadith, Abu Hurairah (ra) reported Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said:

'Four types of people awake under Allah's anger and go to bed under Allah's displeasure.' Those who were listening asked: Who are they, Messenger of Allah?' He replied: 'Men who imitate women, women who imitate men, those who have sex with animals, and men who have sex with men.'

Another hadith:

Narrated AbuSaid al-Khudri: The Prophet (saw) said: 'A man should not look at the private parts of a man, and a woman should not look at the provate parts of another woman. A man should not lie with another man without wearing lowe garment under one cover; and a woman should not lie with another woman without wearing lower garment under one cover' [Abu Dawood].

The concept of sexuality cannot be taken away from the underlying principles of Islam, where the sexual function is in itself a sacred one, expressing the will and the power of God.

The acceptance of one's God-given sex is a form of surrender to God or sumission to Allah. The unity and harmony intended by God is constituted by the union of a man and a women in a lawful sexual act within marriage. Any other way of seeking or acting out a sexual desire violates the order of the world and is condemned as a source of evil and anarchy.

So, zina or adultery is condemned because it goes against the harmonious complementarity of the sexes outside the divinely commanded limits. On the other hand, Liwat, or homosexuality, is condemned because it involves the rebellious rejection of the harmonious complementarity of the sexes which Allah (swt) has given.

Both these acts involve intentional actions which go against Allah's (swt) law. Thus, from an Islamic point of view, it makes no sense to say one has been 'created homosexual' than it does to say one has been 'created adulterous'. While most who practice homosexuality argue that they were created that way and they have no choice in the matter, a notion that is still disputed in the scientific world, this argument still would change what is clearly explained in the Quran.

There is no changing the Quran. The Quran is a perfect guide for humanity. Human law nor science is above Allah (swt). Islam teaches that if people have sinful desires they should keep it to themselves and control them in order to avoid doing what is haram or forbidden. So, having sinful desires are not punishable unless you act on them. You are not judged by you feelings but actions or behaviour. You can have the propensity, inclination, or tendency to be attracted to the same-sex, but it does not necessarily mean you have to act on them.

We all have the tendency to become violent, jealous, evil, and anger, but this does not necessarily mean we have to act on them. Islam has recognized the tendency for people to be attracted to the same-sex through the Whisperings of Shaytan, and that is why through Allah's Wisdom the Quran and Sunnah are listed with preventative measures so we are not be prone to acting on these desires. And this brings into light the difference between what homosexuality means in Islam and what homosexuality means is in the modern world.

Now the view of the West or modern secular society is that both the terms homosexuality and homosexual orientation exist but these differ greatly with Islam. Firstly, there is no such concept of homosexuality in Islam. An Arabic word which describes homosexuality is liwat which refers to 'the doing of Lut's people'. Thus, it implies an activity, a behaviour, not a thought or feeling, it's an active behaviour. So Islam views sodomy as behaviour only, and not thinking about the behaviour. So, you are not a homosexual or a luti because you think of same-sex attraction, but you when you act on these fantasies, you then become a luti or homosexual in Islamic terms.

In contrast, the western concept of homosexuality and homosexual orientation includes both behaviour and feelings.

1) Homosexuality is defined by western researchers not in terms of behaviour but in terms of sexual orientation or sexual preference. Hence, a homosexual person is one who 'experiences emotional and/or physical attraction' towards people of the same sex. This definition is supposed to be a universal one.

2) Homosexuality and heterosexuality are on opposite ends of the spectrum and that both sexualities are natural and normal. So, having a homosexual lifestyle is just as valid as a heterosexual one.

3) A person is not a homosexual by choice, since homosexual orientation is possibly linked to biological or genetic influences.

Hence, homosexuals are gay by destiny and not by choice. And because they are born that way, they should not be morally judged because they are just as normal of a heterosexual person. And because there is no such thing in Islam of a fixed inclination, or fixed genetic predisposition, there is always the possibility that a person's behaviour might change, for example through a conscious choice to obey God's commandments.

So, it can be pointed out that both the terms homosexuality and homosexual orientation make no sense in Islam, except where it has been imported by the West. There is no notion of exclusive homosexuality and no gay way of life. The concept of sexuality cannot be taken away from the underlying principles of Islam, where the sexual function is in itself a sacred one, expressing the will and the power of god.

There is Wisdom in Allah's rulings and they do not change and He only gives us these restrictions for the benefit of humanity. So, it should be crystal clear even literally clear that Islam forbids homosexual behaviour.

If we turn to science now and homosexuality, you will be shocked with the results.


SCIENCE AND HOMOSEXUALITY

When I refer to homosexuality, I am talking about male homosexuality, primarily because lesbianism, which is strongly agreed by researchers is more a product of society or the environment than it is anything to do with biology or genetics. So, really, women are behaving in this unnatural manner just for the thrill of it, because there is nothing in science that can possibly explain away their behaviour.

Homosexuality is a social dilemma because the homosexual lifestyle is ever-increasing, but it really only increased and became so public and 'normal' resulting from the deception of scientific researchers and a political and emotional push by pro-Gay groups.

I will present 2 major scientific studies that had an impact in the study of homosexuality and their effects on changing the minds of researchers, psychologists, psychiatrists, and counsellors, governments, media, educational institutions.

SCIENCE

Let me first stress that science itself cannot be deceptive. Why? Science is neutral, it is amoral. It does not support not does it hurt religion. Science is fact but does not explain all the knowledge that is beyond science, such as spirituality and metaphysics.

The deception is not with science but with scientific researchers. It is their assumptions or their reasoning or toying with science to support their own prejudices or biases that is deceptive.

In the debate over homosexuality, the data supporting a genetic basis are all scientifically weak. In 1991 a small, a study published by a Gay Activist Simon LeVay caused mass hysteria by hypothesizing, with supporting data, that gay men have a smaller nucleus of the part of the brain called - hypothalamus - than straight men. All the homosexual brains that he studied were of men who died of complications due to AIDS. Heterosexual or straight men had a bigger part of the brain than did homosexual men. And even more surprisingly is the fact that the homosexual men turned out to have the same sized nucleus in the brain as women.

So because they had different nucleus sizes in the brain, this makes them homosexual, so they then were born that way, it is biological and ra ra ra. He went on so many shows like those Oprah shows, news, a current affairs, documentaries - claiming he may have found something in the brain that made him a homosexual. So, the public was bombarded with genetic and biological claims to homosexuality.

But the real scientist knows, that his results were not clear-cut and does not suggest anything specific. There were major flaws in his research.

Firstly, the dead brains he used in his research of homosexuals died from AIDS, so that their brain may have deteriorated because of their medical condition. And most importantly, it may have been the homosexual behaviour or activity that made that particular area of the brain a smaller size, not that they were that size to start up with.

So, 'normal' straight men would have a bigger nucleus in the hypothalamus part of the brain because they are masculine and act masculine and behave like real men should. And homosexuals, on the other hand, are acting maybe more feminine and less masculine, and that is the reason why homosexual men may have the same sized nucleus in the hypothalamus as females. Because they are behaving non-masculine, they are not activating the masculine part of the brain for it to enlarge.

What I am trying to point out is that certain behaviours and conditions can make the brain increase and decrease under certain conditions. This study caused a lot of misinterpretations by the media, the media knows nothing about science, but want to broadcast interesting and exciting news, and with a little help from Gay Activists, they will get the false message across that homosexuality is biological, and hence normal.

There were a lot of studies conducted trying to find biological causes to homosexuality, but none were more popular or even more dangerous than Dean Hamer's research in 1993, who claimed to have finally found the 'gay gene'. Hamer found a possible genetic marker on chromosome branch X28 in 40 brothers who were both homosexual. Research seemed to be on the verge of proving that homosexuality is innate, genetic and therefore unchangeable, a normal variant of human nature. The vast majority of readers were urged to believe that homosexuals had been proven to be "born that way." Gays rejoiced at a breakthrough that explained why they were gay. So, by then, psychologists finally had to come to accept homosexuality as genetic and it was unethical to try to make homosexuals into heterosexuals or straight people because this would be biologically impossible.

The skilful deception by scientists is when they try and get their research published in psychology journals so that they can reach their target audience, psychologists, to rethink how they deal with people. Psychologists are the key in trying to normalise behaviour, so if you want to prove criminal activity, violence, promiscuity, homosexuality, drug addiction is genetic, perform the scientific study and publish it in psychology journals.

Two years after this study, we have a crash landing. The gay gene was exposed by a team of clinical neurologists in the U.S. Their study used more participants and used better scientific methods as Hamer, and the clinical team "found no evidence of linkage of the gay gene".

So, no evidence was found for a gay gene. So the gay gene theory is all but dead.

How many people in the audience have heard anyone suggest that homosexuality is genetic?

But it did not die aloud. Nobody will know of these studies unless they are looking for it in a research journal. I was looking for this information because I am interested in the whole area of biology and homosexuality, but does the media bother to broadcast this finding that there is no gay gene. No, because, everyone and some Christian Churches have accepted homosexuality as biological, therefore natural. There is no need to transform the minds of the people, their agenda has been fulfilled.

Anyone, therapists, psychologist or psychiatrist who attempts to suggest that homosexuality is not biologically determined, but a choice and can be changed, is up for career suicide as Gay groups get up in uproar and try to silence them using political measures. If you want to say homosexuality is a sin or immoral, like in Australia some reverends have spoken against homosexuals, Gay groups defame the person by putting obscene people or make obscene images of the person and place them on a Mardi Gras floats for public humiliation. They think we must progress in accepting alternative lifestyles, they think that morals must change at the same pace of technology. While new technology is good for society, new morality brings nothing to the society but chaos!

But why were people so ready to believe in this piece of genetic determinism, which now turns out to be a biological fiction, in the first place? The birth and death of the gay gene tells us a great deal about researchers own prejudices and how they perceive science.

People often react strongly against religious fundamentalism, but people generally seem ready to swallow all varieties of scientific fundamentalism.

Consider how we treat two kinds of truth claims. If someone claims that homosexuality is a sin to be punished by death because it says so in the Bible, Torah, or Quran which is the word of God, most of us (rightly) react with horror. We tend to see such a person as a religious nut or extremist who needs psychological help than convincing.

If, on the other hand, someone claims that homosexuality is a genetically determined trait, caused by a particular sequence in the DNA, we tend to think of this as a reasonably rational claim to truth. Even if we disagree with such a position, we nonetheless view the person adopting it as someone who needs convincing rather than a straitjacket. If scientists today said they looking for a 'terrorist gene', everyone will probably believe them, because they are scientists and scientists hold the knowledge of truth. Why is there such a difference in reasoning styles between the religious and scientists? Because we are conditioned to believe that any statement that sounds scientific, however ill-founded or harmful, should be respected and given the benefit of the doubt. After all, if it is based on experiments and mathematical deduction, it can't be all wrong, can it? So those who make such statements are entitled to a respectful hearing.

Let me stress strongly that science is not evil, but it is possible for scientists to delude themselves that they are producing scientific facts when they are only confirming their own prejudices. Later, to his fellow scientists honestly acknowledged the limitations of his research. Dean Hamer, the supposed founder of the Gay Gene has said that stated along the lines that homosexuality is not inherited and is not rooted essentially in biology. LeVay, the researcher who studies the gay brains also acknowledges that he hasn't found a brain centre for homosexuality. Researchers have played the game of biology, unfairly, and won to win over psychiatrists and psychologists, even though they still lost to science.

In the end, homosexuality, was never and will never be found to be genetic, and all the hype researchers initially had in trying to find the 'gay gene', has ceased.

It used to be common for people who commit wrongdoings or sins that they would say that 'the devil made me do it', in other words that they had no control over their actions as they were encouraged by devils and satan to perform such sinful behaviour.

Nowadays, with the new sophisticated genetic and biological knowledge, we now have a new Satan, our genes. Nowadays we say, 'my genes made me do it.'


I can imagine them screening for a terrorist gene using a checklist:

Q1 What is your religious affiliation? Muslim

Q2 What is your ethnic background Both my parents are Palestinian -double whammy, by then ASIO will be at the door

Q3 Do you have a pilots licence A No, but my brother has one and he can land the plane By then they will take me to Camp X-ray in S. America.

There is now research implying that we have aggressive genes, alcoholic genes, drug addiction genes, and adultery genes. So, whatever, our genes program us to do, we do. Hence, all our behaviour, whether moral immoral can be traced down to minute, microscopic genes. Think about it brothers and sisters, if there was an alcoholic gene that exists, why is it that most Muslims do not drink, is it because we do not have the genes for alcoholism, or because of a conscious choice due to religion not to drink. It is the conscious choice, or rational thinking of a person that gives rise free-will. Freedom to chose between right and wrong. We chose not to practice homosexuality, we chose not to drink or commit incest because our religion tells us not to, and we are not at the mercy of our genes, but to the mercy of Allah (swt).

Even if, certain behaviours were found to be genetic, does not condemn us to be slaves to those genes. Our genes do not dictate who we are, and what we do, but through thought and reflection we decide how we go about our life.


Pro-Gay groups would probably want to call me a Homophobe, you know like homophobia. But I am no more a homophobe than they are a Islamaphobe.

Homophobia is a frequently used term used by homosexuals or homosexual supporters to label people who are against homosexuality. Then you will get the argument if you oppose homosexual behaviour that your are homophobic. Phobia is a clinical word that means an irrational fear. You know when some people see a spider, their blood pressure rises, their heart beats faster, and they panic, that's a phobia. How many of us on coming in contact with a homosexual, did u experience these inner physiological reactions because you see them. None. As we as Muslims do not have an irrational fear of them, but just simply disagree with the behaviour the act. If they say, that you are homophobic, say they ate Islamophobic because they would disagree with Islam and its teachings and the behaviour of Muslims. If you ask them if they have an irrational fear where they panic when they see us and they say 'no'. We just don't like what u practice, argue with them and say that then it is not a phobia but a disagreement with behaviour.

So, here's my question, how many people when they see a homosexual start sweating, panic and can't go on with life in fear of that person. No-one.

So how do they take on board this psychological term of phobia to explain people who just disagree with their behaviour.


GAY MUSLIM - DUAL IDENTITY

This is such a contradiction. Islam is Submission to Allah and a muslim is one who submits to Allah, not one who submits to their whims and desires. And using the term Gay Muslim is trying to equate sexual identity with religious identity. You cant have these separate identities as when you are Muslim, the sexual practice can only be heterosexual. I have never read a hadith where the Prophet (saw) explained the way of life of a homosexual couple.

The religious identity must reign supreme over the sexual identity and not even equal to, as the sexual identity is only part of the whole and not vice versa. You don't try and fit Islam with sexuality but your sexuality must fit under the umbrella of Islam. Being sexual does not make you religious BUT your religious identity, your fitrah, GUIDES your sexuality.

The terms Gay Muslim are total opposites. The same for other religions, you cant be a Gay Christian or a Gay Jew as in their true scriptures, its immoral and they cant co-exist on equal footing.

Muslims have never needed a sexual identity like hetero-Muslim. So bro what is your background? Oh I am a Lebanese Gay Muslim. And he says, what are you? I am an Australian Straight Muslim. This is absurd walla. Has a sexual identity been introduced as an abridged form of Islam. Can you be a Muslim thief, or a Muslim paedophile, or a Muslim rapist? No, as you cannot attach what is inherently sinful in Islam to the religious identity as it goes against what a Muslim is. You can call yourself a Muslim psychologist, a Muslim doctor or a Muslim teacher as these can all co-exist as long as they adhere to Islamic principles, but homosexuality does not. Can you be a promiscuous Muslim?

Proud people who practice homosexuality and call themselves Muslim undergo this constant struggle of questioning their forbidden behaviour. There is a constant struggle where his nafs or ego is being pushed and pulled from the spiritual side to the physical side, until the physical senses win over him. Their behaviour is at war with their spirit.

Everyone has a soul and a jin, and the jin is pleased as long as you stay confused and disobey Allah's commands, as that is his role. All the while, your soul is suffering immensely. How many of us in the audience struggle with their sexual identity. How many of us ask day after day, salat after salat, ask why were we created heterosexual or straight? I doubt most of us question that because we are content with these feelings that are natural and we KNOW they are natural because Allah tells us so.

In Surah Ar-Rum :

"And among His signs is that he created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find comfort in them, and He has placed between you affection and mercy." [30:21]

The reason Muslims question homosexual tendencies is because they know deep down inside its haram, and their conscience is eating them away. Like murders who kill an inncocent person, and keep hiding this fact until their conscience gets the better of them and they turn themselves in. They cannot escape it.

Faith or iman as the seed and the fruits that the tree bears are the behaviours that stem from the eman. Homosexuals say they have eman and they even pray 5 times a day, fast, make hajj and give charity..but you cannot expect Allah (swt) to cover His eyes while you are performing sinful sexual relations and only observe righteous deeds. So what kind of fruits are your fruits bearing? Hence, it makes no sense, to practice homosexuality and pray, make zakat, fast Ramadan.

Faith should prevent people from indulging in forbidden behaviour, for man, through the actions that he does, obeys the dictates of his beliefs and is controlled by their commands. That is why Muhammed (saw) states: "No adulterer commits adultery while in a state of faith; no thief commits a theft while in a state of faith; and no one sips wine while in a state of faith". Hence, true faith would prohibit a person who adhered to their faith from performing actions that is contradictory to its teachings, or refuse to obey it commandments.

You cannot make compromises or half-measures in your life when it comes to Islam. There are in-betweens. The choice is between right and wrong, guidance and confusion, and order and chaos, Islam and unbelief, and the way of God or the way of Satan. ..


Hands up those who have heard of Al-Fatiha Group based in the US? Hands up who know that the Al-Fatiha Group marched in this years' Sydney's Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras. Hand's up those who don't know what I am talking about and do not know who Al-Fatiha are?

Al-Fatiha is an Muslim organization for those Muslims who identify themselves as Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transexual, and the Transgendered people who think Islam permits all these behaviours, sex changes, the confused he shes and the she hes as permissible, and that Allah created them that way..and that Allah loves them. And in South Africa, they are called Al-Fitrah..

I think they should be called Al-Kuffara as they have adopted two beautiful Islamic words and polluted these terms to their advantage and are guided more rightly by their low sexual desires than anything spiritual or remotely intellectual.

These people fast, pray 5 times a day. Started with Faisal Alam (the President of Al-Fatiha). Funded by zionists. They are sitting in their secretive little places that you can only get in with a security card from fear. No Sheikh has accepted them as an Islamic organization.

The irony is, in Surah Al-Fatiha, which they used to name their group, verse 6, 'Ih dina siratil mustaqeem', is translated into 'Show us The Straight Way'. The Straight way, not the Queer way, this is why they don't think. If you look at the Al-Fatiha website and read why they think Islam should permit homosexuality, it makes no sense and their reasoning is illogical and secular and they cant even interpret the Quran and Hadith correctly. None of the members are Islamic scholars guided by intellect but by sexual desires.

Its like they are intensely desperate to get some confirmation that what they are doing is right in Islam.but this support is never forthcoming as they have been cursed by Muslim Sheikhs. They look for loopholes within the Islamic teachings to try and promote themselves as acceptable within Islam.


HOW TO BE A MUSLIM HOMOSEXUAL

Everyone has read books on How to be a good Muslimah or Muslim. Or How to be a Muslim wife, rarely do we see books on how to be a Muslim husband but there is a new 'How to be a Muslim' guide on the Web Its called How to be a Muslim Homosexual. If ever I read such unintelligent rubbish that is loaded with emotional and illogical reasoning it would have to be this article. This guy cannot accept any restriction imposed on him sexually, and yet calls himself Muslim. What's worse, he says he is a convert from Christian to Islam as Islam accepts homosexuality.

The essential problem with people like the members of Al-Fatiha and other Muslims who support people like that (and there are plenty in Sydney), is that they confuse between 'FEELINGS' and 'KNOWING'. Homosexuals 'feel' they were born that way and that the common statement they give. And no-one can argue with that because it is a subjective feeling. If I say I feel Palestinian and I feel Australian, no-one can debate that either because it's a subjective feeling. But while I feel Aussie and Palestinian, I KNOW I AM MUSLIM.

If you feel Muslim, that is blind faith, as you must Know that your are Muslim. You cant have faith without reason in Islam.


So how do you know you are a Muslim?

I can use any field on investigation whether science, history, astronomy, and KNOW I am Muslim.

But what method of investigation, can a homosexual use to justify their sense of KNOWING? They cant, science hasn't helped them much and that is what they wanted.

So How Do They Know, how can they prove to us through conviction and knowing that homosexuality is OK. But instead they insist they feel.

I will tell you all something that is scary. I have come across counsellors who work in our area who say they are Muslim but you then wander when you talk to them. They told me that Islam should move on and accept homosexual behaviour. One told me well 'what can we do if they were born that way?' I asked her for proof of that as I know there is no proof in science, and then she says, well if they are consenting adults, there is no harm done on anyone and then it is permissible. I then asked, OK for arguments sake, if you believe its OK to practice homosexuality as long as they are consenting adults, then you must allow for pre-marital sex in Islam. She was silent. She then went on to say that my reality of Allah is different to their reality of Allah. I was like, since when were we appointed Islamic scholars and we can re-interpret Islamic teachings and permit what is haram and making it halal.

This is an outright abuse of responsibility, as Muslims are going to these Muslim? counsellors thinking that they will give them Islamic guidance when in fact, these counsellors put them in more harm with their secular positions.

Remember this, Consenting Adults also need God's Consent. Homosexuals, those who commit 'consensual incest', sex outside marriage, beastiality behaviour do not have God's consent, regardless of age. Another said to me, Islam should progress.......
"progress".

But Islam is progression. In actual fact when we start viewing homosexuality and other sexual promiscuity as acceptable, we are regressing to the time of Sodom and Gomarroh, the People of Lut, what sort of progression are they talking about!

The answer to this is simple, they are guided by feelings and emotion. Having clients come to you and say they feel that Allah created them homosexual and they don't like being that way but they cant help themselves being attracted to the same sex and you hear their struggle, pain, depression, has led the counsellor to feel sorry for these people and re-evaluate the din to say that Islam should progress and accept these Muslims and their behaviour. They tell them don't worry, Allah still loves you as he loves all his Creation. But if Allah loves homosexuals, he will also loves thieves, murderers, liars, hypocrites, criminals, etc. are then not all His Creation? How can Allah accept a behaviour that he has told us is not permissible? Did Allah make a mistake and say that homosexuality is haram for about 1400 hundred years and when humans are ready, they can start disobeying my Laws, being a progressive civilisation, and I will start accepting all evils...c'mon

This is where we fall as Muslims when we start making decisions based on emotional reasoning and we forget that we as humans are weak, when a counsellor says to a Muslim client that its OK to be gay and a practicing Muslim, are we Sheikhs to say this. No Sheikh has accepted homosexuality as normal, acceptable, or permissible, so who are we to question Islamic scriptures using emotion.

So, if so many youths start coming to us and say that I feel like sleeping with this person but I am too young to get married but its killing me not sleeping with this person because I love him or her. Do we then permit pre-marital sex on the basis of that one particular individual or even 1000 similar cases. Do we change the teachings of Islam because they society we live in permit homosexuality, pre-merital sex, beastilaity, orgies, bisexuality, nudity. Is this what they mean by progressive Islam or secular Islam?

"If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful" [Surah 4, Ayah 16]

So we have established by using Islam, Science, and Rationality that homosexual behaviour is not permissible. What do we do to help the Muslims who are struggling with these tendencies or want to stop the homosexual practice? You know, if we do nothing as a community, the problem will just increase until we a re-enactment of Sodom and Gomarrah, the People of Lut all over again. The more we walk in the streets of Lakemba and wont think of helping people outside this area, the more our Ummahs problem will ever increase. We have the non-Muslims doing our responsibility. We have left the counselling and therapy to people that when they talk to us, its like an alien culture. Why? Because we know Islam will only be the solution to help us out of a hole, but there are no Muslims talking to them, so they sink deeper into that hole and it is our fault. Yep. Its our fault alright because you can all argue that they got themselves into trouble by fist taking drugs, becoming homosexuals, drinking alcohol of having sexual relationships, but when they are aware that what they are doing is detrimental and want to come back to the faith, where are we aiding them? Where are our hands reaching out when they are in need of a pull.

We have Islamic lessons for brothers and sisters and give dawa to the 'good people' and we judge 'who is worthy of Islam' so we give them the message. Who are we to judge, who made us Hakim . The message of Islam is for all humanity, not the 'good people' only. Who is to say that the so-called 'bad people' will not take hold of Islam better then me and you?

Look at Yusuf Islam, Sex Drugs and Rock n Roll, turned mashallah good Muslim. Who would think that a personality like him, would chose Islam? Who is to say that a Muslim who enjoins in haram behaviour won't go back to his faith and strives to please Allah, will not be better than the person who never committed a major sin? No-one knows.

That's my point, we do not know. Our job is to offer the service and guide them and leave judgment for Allah (swt). Who are we to choose who is deserving of Islam?

Islam is a message for humanity.

Let us help ourselves, our brothers and sisters and stop judging one another on who is deserving or not deserving and leave that to the Ultimate Judge Rabil Alameen.

The Muslims have gone underground. And going underground is the worst way to go. And the worst thing is that Muslims have gone underground because there is no other place to go. Subhanallah, they refuse to go to unIslamic counseling because they don't feel comfortable, and they don't trust them. And even I they go to unIslamic organizations for help, they feel as if they are talking a different language because of its non-religion emphasis. These troubled Muslims are screaming for Islam and desperate for Islamic help and we in return SHAME them as a community, turn our backs on them, we pretend they don't exist. And if they end up at Gay Counselors, the Muslims would walk in feeling confused and then after enough sexual brain washing they will confidently come out and say 'I a Gay'. They are like recruitment agencies, recruiting people to be like them.

Where is the Islamic equivalent to Barnados, the Salvation Army, Mission Australia. Where are these organizations that 'Reach out' to Muslims on the streets, or in the dark alleys or at public places. Prophet sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam was reported to have said in a hadeeth, as narrated by Abu-Moosa, may Allaah be pleased with him: "The example of the unity of the Muslims is like the example of a single structure, its parts strengthening and supporting one another" [Bukhaari & Muslim]

Our structure as a community is weak. The problem is we leave our Ummahs issues to be solved by non-Muslim organizations and we go about our lives as if nothing is going wrong. We walk down Haldon St and buy our meat from the Halal butchery, attend and Islamic lesson, maybe buy an Islamic book and we go home. And we say, Alhamdullilah, today I saw my community and I am at peace. And then we go home, turn on the TV and watch Big Brother. You know today ,we are more worried about who is getting evicted from Big Brother than we are about helping the Ummah in need an Ummah in crisis. Our struggling community are addicted on drugs in Cabramatta and Bankstown. And Bankstown is a drugs swimming pool for Muslims The Muslim females are selling their bodies to pay for their drug addiction, the Muslim men who take up drugs by the 3rd month are most likely to get Hep C which is an irreversible disease. He will give this to his wife, who then gives it to her child through pregnancy. Why? Because he reuses or shares the needles he takes drugs from because he is so ashamed that he is addicted, we do not give them advice. They are not educated with the harms of the repercussions of what happens to them if they at least reduce the harm to themselves and consequently their families.

You may say to yourself, well he took up drugs, let him suffer the consequences of his actions? OK, so then what is it his wife and innocent baby's crime in getting Hep C and HIV. Do we condemn his whole family just because we wont get out onto the Streets and educate and help these people? Or the woman who is selling her body and neglecting her kids just to be able to feed her cravings that would ease her addiction pain and so that she can somewhat be there for her kids? They feel shame, guilt, and loneliness and feel so low that they just wish they knew how to get out of their misery. They know that they want to meet Allah free of sin but while they are hesitant to reach out because they feel ashamed, we do not even offer them a rope to get out of that hole. Tha is what they need HOPE.

So many health professionals cannot help muslims because they think differently. Muslims know of Iman and know of Islam, and when they are in need, they need Islam, not modern secular theories that separate the person from their religion. Muslims live and breathe their religion and Muslims when they go to non-Muslim therapy, its like going to MARS or another culture altogether. It does not fit well with Muslims. And this is not coming from me, but from Health and Drug professionals. At the moment I am working with Sheikh Shadi in order to try and marry Islam and psychological therapy. Even if they went to a Sheikh, they can only get to the heart of the Muslim and tell them to be patient with their struggles, turn to Allah and repent, and ask Allah for help but the Sheikh cannot offer the therapy, his skills are right at the heart of the person and this is where a marriage between Islam and Psychology or Islam and Counselling comes into place. Change happens through process.

Sometimes people think that if they pray enough or wish hard enough, their homosexuality will just disappear. This is an unrealistic expectation. Changes in the area of sexual orientation happen as a result of a process which usually involves some hard personal work.

Imagine wanting a vegetable garden. You could pray for years that God would make vegetables grow in your backyard. When nothing happens, you might even decide to be angry at God for not hearing your prayers. However, the reality is that while God can make vegetables grow, we must prepare the soil, plant the seeds, water and weed, and do other work. This gives the best chance that there will be an abundance of vegetables to harvest. In the same way, individuals who want to experience changes in their sexuality must do a lot of work as part of the process. God certainly does His work, and by His Spirit accomplishes things which we cannot do ourselves, but we need to prepare the space in our lives and cooperate with what God wants to do.


ø Allahuma thabit ooqulana, wa yahdi naffosoona Warshudna illal haq Wa Ihdinas siratal mustaqeem.


May Allah make firm our minds, and guide our souls, and guide us to the Truth and Show us the Straight way, and keep us away from the Queer path.

listen: Alex Day interviewed on JOY Melbourne Aug 2002 regarding this talk (14:30 mins)

email contacts and links regarding this matter


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90 years old, political gay activist, hosting two web sites, one personal: http://www.red-jos.net one shared with my partner, 94-year-old Ken Lovett: http://www.josken.net and also this blog. The blog now has an alphabetical index: http://www.red-jos.net/alpha3.htm

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